Roman Y
Interesting. Is it possible to learn a language without grammar.

Well, I'm sure this is not a new topic but anyway. On Wednesday my teacher from the U.S. told me that he never knew what a phrasal verb was until he started to teach English. 

Secondly, he said, if you asked a native speaker 'What is the First or Second Conditional' they wouldn't know what you're talking about. 

 

If you have tried to learn a second language, what is your opinion of this?

 

I've been trying to follow this strategy but have stumbled with a problem - the people answering question here, use unfamiliar words, like 'adverbs, adjuctives and' and so on. How was you able to speak at the age of 5 or 7 when you haven't learned grammar? 

Nov 28, 2015 2:19 PM
Comments · 38
9

Romen, I can tell you're trying <em>really really hard</em> to present a case that you can be fluent in a language and ignoring grammar.  Doesn't matter what anyone tells you.  You're not really asking a question, you're looking for comfort.

 

That's like the lung cancer patient who goes to 50 doctors to try and find one that says it wasn't her smoking cigarettes that caused it at all.  She's not looking for an actual answer, she's looking for someone, anyone, to agree with her.

 

You use a basketball analogy.  Try winning at basketball while you're fouling other players, going out of bounds, exceeding the shot clock, and double-dribbling all game.  Do you think you'll do well?  Only if the game you're playing is not basketball but some other game you've made up that coincides with your lack of understanding of the rules.  But by then it's not basketball.

 

Try speaking fluent Russian but putting everything in nominative case.  That's not Russian that would be a made-up language.  Your nephew either uses grammar or he's not even close to fluent.  You can't have it both ways.

 

So keep asking (or not asking, but looking for agreement) on your stance if it makes you feel better.  Classic "asking a question and then arguing with the answer" behavior.

 

Laura, children do learn grammar.  They may not be learning the grammatical terms but I can assure you they learn grammar.  Do I need to type some Spanish sentences with completely incorrect grammar like I did with English for you to get it?

 

"Yo creer el posibilidad no sabe me entienden decir pero gustar no a yo gramatica cosas."  Does that make <em>any </em><em></em>sense?  That's Spanish without grammar.  Is someone who speaks like that fluent?  Really?

November 29, 2015
8

I've seen his videos before and I do like him. Even though he focused mostly on English, he gave me some confidence in learning other languages. That said, I think his video was meant more for learners who have reached a certain level and, especially, learners who spend too much time in their room practicing grammar without ever speaking to anybody.

 

I don't know if it's possible to throw away grammar textbooks. Most adults, as I said before, need reasoning and explanations behind new and strange things. Like the way you asked all those questions about that sentence and the verbs. I don't know any kids who ask that, but we do it all the time. I'm especially struggling with this in Russian, where I start asking "why is that in dative?" or "why did they put a preposition there?" I've come to the conclusion that it wastes a lot of time to ask "why" and, instead, I'd rather just accept it as it is. And, as you said, get exposed to the language to understand what sounds right and what doesn't.

 

In another video, AJ talked about his trip to Guatemala (I think?). He said that his wife, who barely knew Spanish grammar, was more confident in speaking to native speakers and her Spanish improved as a result. But he, who was so caught up with grammar rules and trying to think of the right conjugations, barely spoke with anyone.

 

I do agree that a big part of learning grammar is speaking with others. My Russian teacher makes us learn a lot of grammar rules and a lot of endings, but I would just forget them during a conversation or I can't recall them fast enough. It really helps, though, when I make a mistake and natives correct me. I tend to remember it much easier that way. So I prefer a line between the two: learn enough grammar but don't dwell on them that you forget to talk and listen.

November 29, 2015
8

My favorite teacher - Stephen Krashen - made a difference between "learning" and "acquiring" a language. "Learning" always involves grammar - but doesn't necessarily let's you speak a language. "Acquiring" takes place when you are offered input in your target language that is juuust a bit beyond your comfort zone - and that is also what happens when you learn your first language as a child. Grammar is not consciously involved in that process.

From my personal experience grammar is vastly overrated - my teachers tell me that I'm 99% correct in English although I have never learned English grammar and wouldn't know a Second Conditional if it hit me on the head.

Besides "grammar" doesn't help you when you are speaking; it is a conscious process that takes time - which you don't have while in a conversation.

My advice is to emulate the natural process by which you acquired Russian as a child and get as much understandable input in English as you can get. True, you spent years and years doing that, but don't forget that as a child you had to learn both the concept and the word representing it. That's what took you so long.

November 28, 2015
8

Romen, native speakers do know correct grammar. They just don't know the name of different grammar terms (like "first conditional" or "adjunctives").

 

As Richard said, most children just copy other adults when they learn to speak. When you're an adult learning languages, though, you usually cannot go around not knowing anything and just speak like babies. Well, you can, but it wastes a lot of time. Also, most adults don't like going around looking stupid and saying wrong things. So you learn grammar through textbooks and, in order to learn through textbooks, you have to understand concepts like "genitive" or "participle". Children are more free and they can absorb anything, but adults usually require explanations of grammar concepts. Knowing these things help us get through the unknown, in my opinions.

November 28, 2015
8

When we first begin to speak our native language at the age of 2 or 3, we simply copy the words that we hear our family members speak. At this point we do not know any grammar, but we begin to use grammar by copying the correct grammar from the people we are copying.

 

Then, in school, we learn more vocubulary and begin to develop our own sentences. At this time, we are taught grammar in school.

If we want to develop our native language, or a second language, we must learn the grammar rules.

 

Here are two good websites that describe the 8 English parts of speech:

 

http://www.english-grammar-revolution.com/parts-of-speech.html

 

https://www.englishclub.com/grammar/parts-of-speech.htm

November 28, 2015
Show more