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don't you think that the non-existence of god isn't a major blow to justice?what about the criminals who have never paid for their crimes?how you imagine yourself when dead?what will you be?where will you go?
you may be neglecting the most important thing of life!
how would life exist if god doesn't do?
how do you imagine that the universe is not controled by a very very high intelligence?
so, if somebody kills a son of you for example, you would let him free 'cause his act is determined by his DNA!!!!
isn't it a paradox?
i think that you have spent a lot of your time to make you believe in the non existence of god and you know (in deep of you) that god exists.
you may spend less time to get convainced in god's existence.
you said "There is no need to believe in a supernatural creator of our univers".
no need: proves that you believe in god but you just don't recognise it.
Steve i find you very clever and you write well. moreover you should change the way you see things, you should shift paradigms.
God created everything. you don't know god, or you've received false information about god so you've choosen to ignore and deny the existence of God.
Nobody hopes to be killed.
it is not a hope or a choice to be killed to go to paradise.
we go to paradise by being in the god's way.
god loves us, god created you and knows you more better than you do.
god loves you more and more better than you can imagine.
you're his creation, your soul is derived from his own soul.
hell is created for monsters and destructive people, people who are evil incarnate.
heaven is for high people, good ones.
the highest level in heaven is not beautiful women or great houses or good foods.
the highest level is beneath god's throne, you can see god averytime and talk to him everytime.
believe me that god is the best 'thing' you ever can see and talk to...
Man, this is so juicy. I love threads like this.God, as people currently see it, is a manifestation of one's own ego, perfected in the ways they cannot make themselves. It's why "God" always has different opinions or positions depending on the person who speaks about it, and why "God" is almost always egocentrically linked to the believer in question, and it's also why people take offense when someone tells them that gods don't exist; that person interprets such a statement as "Your own perfected ego is nonsense".I won't bother responding to Steve because, despite whatever differences in ontology we have, we're on the same side here, so I'll just address your comments, Bou.First, given where you live, I can assume with almost complete certainty that you are a Sunni Muslim. That alone should be a hint that one's deities (or at least the names of those deities) are determined based on cultural and geological positioning. I will therefore address your points as though we were speaking about the God of Abraham, as I also find it almost certain that you do not believe in the existence of all the other millions of propositioned gods. Your statements are in bold and mine are not. And this is gonna be a bit of a long rebuttal. I'm going to get snarky at certain points, because some statements deserve my sarcasm. Read at your own discretion.
don't you think that the non-existence of god isn't a major blow to justice?The God of Abraham circumvents justice. In Islam, Allah determines by fiat whether a person is rewarded or denied, based on arbitrary moral prescripts that very frequently would be considered highly immoral to most people alive today. Further, there is no justice in either absolving someone of all wrongdoing and giving them eternal paradise OR torturing them forever based on a necessarily finite crime. You either have unwarranted mercy or egregious punishment. Lastly, why am I supposed to care about justice, anyway? It's a human invention, not some sort of immutable physical law. Why should I expect that somehow justice continues (if it indeed does; Islam, in a similar fashion to the other Abrahamic religions, is NOT just) after people die?
what about the criminals who have never paid for their crimes?What about the criminals who have? They've served their time. Now they're expected to be tortured FOREVER because they didn't accept one specific interpretation of one world religion? And again, why should I expect justice to continue after the beings that invent it in their brains have those brains die?
how you imagine yourself when dead?I'd imagine that I wouldn't be imagining much, because I'd be dead. I've been dead for about fourteen billion years and I don't remember a single thing about it. I'd reckon it will be exactly the same when I leave the party.
what will you be?A collection of atoms in slightly different places than they currently are.
where will you go?I'll likely do the cremation with a sapling thing. Having my body put into a box seems irrational, considering that I won't be around to care about how nice that box is.
you may be neglecting the most important thing of life!You may be neglecting Christ. I don’t think you’re losing sleep over that, are you? Or maybe you’re neglecting Brahma, and you’ll be reincarnated into a lesser form. Or maybe you’ve neglected Odin, and you’ll never reach Valhalla.
how would life exist if god doesn't do?No need to write up a long explanation about this. 1. Stop filling in unknowns with “God”. Your lack of knowledge about an event does not justify claiming that a magic man did it. 2. Most of the mechanisms of abiogenesis have been reproduced in lab conditions within the last century. They had over 8 billion years and a hundred thousand trillion planets in order to accidentally happen once. It is not remotely out of the realm of probability that not only has life begun on Earth without any sort of supernatural intervention, but that it’s also occurred hundreds of thousands of times elsewhere.
how do you imagine that the universe is not controled by a very very high intelligence?There’s this cool thing called physics. It kinda removes the assumption that the planets have to be dangled from God’s fingers like a puppet show. There’s no need whatsoever for intelligence in this universe. In fact, given how exorbitantly wasteful and empty the whole project is, and how terribly inefficient the one teensy island of life is at maintaining that life, and how hostile all the emptiness is toward that life, I’d say that if there WAS something controlling the place, it’s borderline retarded. I certainly wouldn’t waste so much magic energy making five hundred billion star systems and wait for several billion years if the only thing I wanted to do was play dress up with a particular species of great ape.
so, if somebody kills a son (etc.)...Admitting that a situation isn’t entirely within a person’s control does not necessitate that they must be let free. Imprisonment also serves as a societal buffer from dangerous individuals. And we also imprison drug-impaired people for crimes even if they weren’t “in control”. Complete, unrestricted agency is not a prerequisite for imprisonment. There is no paradox.
...you know (in deep of you) that god exists.
What a patronizing pile of bullshit. “I think YOU know deep down that ZEUS exists even though you try to convince yourself so vehemently of the existence of this false god of Mohammad.” Sounds pretty ridiculous to you, right? It sounds the same way to us. I’m not an atheist because I’m really scared of God and/or I want to rebel or some nonsense. I’m an atheist because there is absolutely no empirical evidence anywhere in the universe for ANY deity of ANY revealed religion, and therefore I dismiss the notion of deities as easily as I dismiss dragons and fairies and mermaids.
you said "There is no need to believe in a supernatural creator of our univers".no need: proves that you believe in god but you just don't recognise it.“I believe in God! I think there’s a need for him in our universe.” “Ah-HAH! So you DON’T believe in any gods ever, and there’s no need for them at all, and you’re actually an atheist!” Does that sound even remotely rational to you? Because it’s exactly the same argument you just used. Stop telling Steve what he believes; you don’t know him nearly well enough to tell him that he’s lying about his own worldview.