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“would have” referring to future? “This is monstrous,” said Lady Nym. “I would not have believed it, not of a Kingsguard knight.” “They are sworn to obey, just as my captain is,” the prince said. “I had my doubts as well, but you all saw how Ser Balon balked when I suggested that we go by sea. _A ship would have disturbed all the queen’s arrangements_.” (A Dance with Dragons, novel) Context: Sand Snakes were bastard daughters of Prince Oberyn, and Prince Doran. Tyene, Obara and Lady Nym were the three of Sand Snakes. Prince Oberyn was Doran’s brother. Prince Doran just told them that Queen Cersei asked Ser Balon, who was a Kingsuard Knight, to escort her daughter and Prince Doran’s son to the capital. If they go overland, they will be attacked by barbarians and the son would die. This is a trap set up by the Queen. But if they go by sea, the Queen’s scheme to murder the son won’t be successful.I know the second “would have” implies “If they had travelled by ship the Queen’s plan to murder the son would not have worked” So for the underlined sentence, do both if clause and the would have clause refer to the future, which is not going to happen or is counterfactual? Thank you.
Sep 23, 2018 3:12 AM
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edited This refers to a contrary-to-fact past. The "A ship would have disturbed" is equivalent to "If we had decided to go by ship, that would have disturbed the Queen's arrangement to murder the Duke's son." - "if we had decided" is a contrary-to-fact past event. - "that would have disturbed" is a contrary-to-fact past result. https://www.ef.com/english-resources/english-grammar/type-3-conditional/
September 23, 2018
Some corrections: Prince Doran just told them that Queen Cersei HAD asked Ser Balon, who was a Kingsuard Knight, to escort her daughter and Prince Doran’s son to the capital. If they go overland, they will be attacked by barbarians and the son WILL die. But if they WENT by sea, the Queen’s scheme to murder the son WOULDN"T be successful. "If they went by sea" does not refer to a past event, but to an unlikely/impossible hypothetical event. "If they go by sea" refers to a likely/probable event. "If they had gone by sea" refers to a hypothetical event in the past. "They went by sea," "they have gone by sea," and "they had gone by sea" refer to past events. https://www.ef.com/english-resources/english-grammar/conditional/
September 23, 2018
They are referring to a hypothetical past, that involves regret about the future, that did not happen. if the queen had (hypothetically) gone by ship. She would have regretted; the non outcome, that did not or could not then (now) happen. The end final (regretful) result would be the inability to now in the future execute the plan "to murder the son", the hypothetical past would be "in the future" whenever the ship reached its (planned in the future) destination. And the outcome in the future would have been the son's planned ambush and murder. The future would have become the past. (grammatically only no actual time travel is involved) Or the past would be the future (grammatically is how it is attempted to be explained in, confusing to second language learner students grammar books. Once again no space time travel ships are involved) Many indeed almost all of the example sentences you see and read on the internet about such things are rarely used everyday by natives. The natives would convert the sentences into positive assertive plain to understand sentences.
September 23, 2018
zuotengdazuo
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