Tenerife,
Canary Islands,
Spain,
Africa.
So, something that's been making me wonder. . .
When people set about learning a new language such as French or Spanish or Japanese, most of them invest a reasonable amount of their efforts in learning to pronounce the sounds as close as possible to that of the native speakers, which involves plenty of gargling in the case of French, imitations of machine-guns with Spanish, and I guess mixing Ls and Rs in the case of Japanese. But why do most learners of Irish Gaelic seem to make no effort to use the unique sounds of the language, especially considering that this part is one of the easiest and fastest, certainly easier than the tons of vocab and grammar involved?
In my experience 99% of learners of Gaelic speak it with all and only the phonemes from the repertoire of Her Majesty's English, and therefore sound quite distracting and out of place in any conversation with natives.
The main problem with using only English phonemes is that it confounds one of the main features of Gaelic's dynamics of word differentiation, which is the dual consonant contrast system, which requires two phonemes for each of the consonants, for important lexical differentiation, such as marking plurals and cases, so without it there is a great impoverishment of comprehension through pronouncing the wrong version, and therefore saying (or hearing) words which are actually not those intended (or spoken).
An example:
Most learners and professed fluent speakers and even paid teachers who intend to say, for example: "Naoi lá le mo bhean" ("Nine days with my wife") are actually saying "Ní leáigh le mo veain" ("Not melt with my van"), an actual example from a real conversation I remember, with a teacher of Gaelic in Galway.
I'm wondering if the situation is the same with other minority indigenous languages surrounded by one single very strong and very different language, as would be the case with for example Ketchup in The Andees, or Breton in France, or maybe Ainu in Japan.
Any ideas or observations?
Best wishes,
Patrick.
@Truman Overby:
"At any rate, it's pretty much a dead language that has no relevance today. A few scholars are interested in it. But other than that, it's dead, is it not?"
[yawn]
I'm also curious how many speakers a language needs for you to consider it "not dead". And while you're at it, could you also explain what you mean exactly by a "relevant" language -- it's a new concept for me.
@Truman Overby, I may be wrong but I think Wikipedia does not include "the entire school-age population of the Republic of Ireland" into this "a small minority of Irish people speaking Irish as a first language" category. As far as I know, outside the Gaeltacht districts they learn it at school as a second language. But anyway, I wouldn't call the language in which people my age and younger give concerts and make cover-versions of the songs by Pink, Adele, Taylor Swift, Hozier, Chainsmokers, Macklemore and other respectful people I hear almost every day, dead. Endangered - yes, of course, but dead? How many speakers do you need to call a language "not dead" then? :)
*whispers* actually, I'm pretty sure you can find a couple of Irish learners even in your own state! Google says there's Indiana Celtic Community somewhere in Bloomington.
@K P, yes, the ch/j pronunciation of slender t/d is typical of Donegal, and there is a gradient from north to south (which continues into Scotland where ch/j is also heard). The Russian soft r in your link sounds quite different to the Irish slender r which is more fricative (it's closer to Czech ř or Polish rz, but in some areas, such as Gaoth Dobhair, where Clannad and Enya come from, it can be close to a y sound between vowels).
@Kseniia, as you can probably imagine, I'd be more on the Gaeltacht Irish side of the argument. Though this new kind of Irish might indeed be better than nothing, I think it makes no sense not to learn the indigenous pronunciation while there is still that option available to learners (many languages undergoing a revival don't have the good fortune to still have living native speakers). What's the point of learning a language if you're not going to learn it properly? I think this idea of "Irish DNA" is part of the problem: if you're Irish you're assumed to instinctively know how to pronounce the language, so therefore there's no need to teach pronunciation.
@Truman Overby, the entire school-age population of the Republic of Ireland is learning Irish, for a start; here on italki you can find many Irish learners (including some taking part in this very discussion).
@Kseniia, what Patrick is referring to isn't just people having a bit of an accent (i.e. pronouncing some phonemes in a slightly anomalous way), which is reasonable enough, but rather the breakdown of whole the phonological system of the language (i.e. systematically confounding distinct phonemes and thus eliminating important lexical and grammatical distinctions). It really is a big problem in Irish, but it's a problem caused by Irish people; don't worry, your Russian accent is probably a benefit as Russian has much more in common with Irish phonologically than English does.
@K
P, to answer your question on slender "t", it's a sound that varies
quite a bit between dialects. The "t" in the recording you linked to
could certainly be used as an Irish slender "t" (in some areas it would
be more palatalised, or rather palatal, similar to English "ch" in
"cheese", in other areas it would be slightly less palatalised, more
like the English "t" in "tea").