Patchy
Gia sư cộng đồng
Why not Gaelic too?

Tenerife,
Canary Islands,
Spain,
Africa.

So, something that's been making me wonder. . .

When people set about learning a new language such as French or Spanish or Japanese, most of them invest a reasonable amount of their efforts in learning to pronounce the sounds as close as possible to that of the native speakers, which involves plenty of gargling in the case of French, imitations of machine-guns with Spanish, and I guess mixing Ls and Rs in the case of Japanese. But why do most learners of Irish Gaelic seem to make no effort to use the unique sounds of the language, especially considering that this part is one of the easiest and fastest, certainly easier than the tons of vocab and grammar involved?

In my experience 99% of learners of Gaelic speak it with all and only the phonemes from the repertoire of Her Majesty's English, and therefore sound quite distracting and out of place in any conversation with natives.

The main problem with using only English phonemes is that it confounds one of the main features of Gaelic's dynamics of word differentiation, which is the dual consonant contrast system, which requires two phonemes for each of the consonants, for important lexical differentiation, such as marking plurals and cases, so without it there is a great impoverishment of comprehension through pronouncing the wrong version, and therefore saying (or hearing) words which are actually not those intended (or spoken).

An example:

Most learners and professed fluent speakers and even paid teachers who intend to say, for example: "Naoi lá le mo bhean" ("Nine days with my wife") are actually saying "Ní leáigh le mo veain" ("Not melt with my van"), an actual example from a real conversation I remember, with a teacher of Gaelic in Galway.

I'm wondering if the situation is the same with other minority indigenous languages surrounded by one single very strong and very different language, as would be the case with for example Ketchup in The Andees, or Breton in France, or maybe Ainu in Japan.
Any ideas or observations?

Best wishes,
Patrick.

17 Thg 07 2018 17:30
Bình luận · 17
6

@Truman Overby:

"At any rate, it's pretty much a dead language that has no relevance today. A few scholars are interested in it. But other than that, it's dead, is it not?"

[yawn]
I'm also curious how many speakers a language needs for you to consider it "not dead". And while you're at it, could you also explain what you mean exactly by a "relevant" language -- it's a new concept for me.

21 tháng 7 năm 2018
5

@Truman Overby, I may be wrong but I think Wikipedia does not include "the entire school-age population of the Republic of Ireland" into this "a small minority of Irish people speaking Irish as a first language" category. As far as I know, outside the Gaeltacht districts they learn it at school as a second language. But anyway, I wouldn't call the language in which people my age and younger give concerts and make cover-versions of the songs by Pink, Adele, Taylor Swift, Hozier, Chainsmokers, Macklemore and other respectful people I hear almost every day, dead. Endangered - yes, of course, but dead? How many speakers do you need to call a language "not dead" then? :)

*whispers* actually, I'm pretty sure you can find a couple of Irish learners even in your own state! Google says there's Indiana Celtic Community somewhere in Bloomington.

20 tháng 7 năm 2018
5

@K P, yes, the ch/j pronunciation of slender t/d is typical of Donegal, and there is a gradient from north to south (which continues into Scotland where ch/j is also heard). The Russian soft r in your link sounds quite different to the Irish slender r which is more fricative (it's closer to Czech ř or Polish rz, but in some areas, such as Gaoth Dobhair, where Clannad and Enya come from, it can be close to a y sound between vowels).

@Kseniia, as you can probably imagine, I'd be more on the Gaeltacht Irish side of the argument. Though this new kind of Irish might indeed be better than nothing, I think it makes no sense not to learn the indigenous pronunciation while there is still that option available to learners (many languages undergoing a revival don't have the good fortune to still have living native speakers). What's the point of learning a language if you're not going to learn it properly?  I think this idea of "Irish DNA" is part of the problem: if you're Irish you're assumed to instinctively know how to pronounce the language, so therefore there's no need to teach pronunciation.

@Truman Overby, the entire school-age population of the Republic of Ireland is learning Irish, for a start; here on italki you can find many Irish learners (including some taking part in this very discussion).

20 tháng 7 năm 2018
5
Thank you for starting this much-needed discussion, Patrick. I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in being concerned about this. I agree that, compared to other languages, much less effort seems to be put into teaching proper pronunciation in Irish, and that mispronunciation by learners risks undermining the language.
At least in some cases, though, the problem is more complex than people simply being lazy about pronunciation. As you know, the Irish language has had a strong influence on the English spoken in Ireland, including in terms of pronunciation, and people (at least those who are interested in Irish) are generally aware of this but don't have any deeper understanding of exactly how that influence manifests itself. I think that many learners assume that their Hiberno-English pronunciation is basically Gaelic pronunciation and therefore suitable to be used indifferently for both languages. Irish learners in Ireland all live in areas where Irish was once spoken, and I have known people who were convinced that their English pronunciation in some way reflects the way that Irish was pronounced in their local area and therefore feel justified in resisting attempts to impose the pronunciation of some other (Gaeltacht) area.
Of course, it doesn't help matters that even many Irish teachers don't have the correct pronunciation, and that mispronunciation is so rife that learners find their mistakes reinforced by listening to almost any other second-language speaker. It's a vicious circle that needs to be broken.
It should be noted, though, that not all learners are guilty of this: some do indeed make the effort to learn and use the correct pronunciation, and they're to be commended.
19 tháng 7 năm 2018
4

@Kseniia, what Patrick is referring to isn't just people having a bit of an accent (i.e. pronouncing some phonemes in a slightly anomalous way), which is reasonable enough, but rather the breakdown of whole the phonological system of the language (i.e. systematically confounding distinct phonemes and thus eliminating important lexical and grammatical distinctions). It really is a big problem in Irish, but it's a problem caused by Irish people; don't worry, your Russian accent is probably a benefit as Russian has much more in common with Irish phonologically than English does.


@K P, to answer your question on slender "t", it's a sound that varies quite a bit between dialects. The "t" in the recording you linked to could certainly be used as an Irish slender "t" (in some areas it would be more palatalised, or rather palatal, similar to English "ch" in "cheese", in other areas it would be slightly less palatalised, more like the English "t" in "tea").

19 tháng 7 năm 2018
Hiển thị thêm